A few questions

[Kandahar]

Hi all. I'm beginning to plan out my month-long European adventure, and I'm unsure how much I need to borrow for this trip. I'm going to be staying in hostels, not drinking alcohol, eating out maybe 1.5 meals per day at reasonably-priced restaurants, and mostly travelling by train or bus. I was wondering if anyone could give me an estimate of how much that might cost.

Also, should I buy a Eurail Student Pass or just train tickets between the individual cities? And although I know the locations of the cities/countries in Europe, I'm not sure of the relative distances involved. Is there a website where I can find out how long it takes the train to travel between various cities? I'm not sure if all of my planned overnight trains are really necessary, nor am I sure if there are any overnighters that I should be planning for but didn't. Do I generally need to make reservations ahead of time to ensure a spot on a train, or can I just pick up and go whenever I feel like it?

Here's my itinerary. I'm not sure if it's realistic; will I be spending too much time travelling rather than sightseeing? Should I be spending more/less time in some of these locations than I have planned?

Jul 31 - Flight from Chicago to Madrid
Aug 1/2 - Madrid
Aug 3 - Toledo/Granada
Aug 4 - Seville
Aug 5 - Gibraltar/Tangiers (overnight train to Barcelona)
Aug 6/7 - Barcelona (overnight train to Florence)
Aug 8 - Florence/Pisa
Aug 9/10/11 - Rome
Aug 12 - Pompeii/Sorrento
Aug 13 - Capri
Aug 14 - Amalfi/Ravello/Naples (overnight train to Venice)
Aug 15 - Venice (overnight trian to Prague)
Aug 16/17/18 - Prague
Aug 19 - Dresden/Berlin
Aug 20 - Frankfurt
Aug 21/22 - Amsterdam
Aug 23/24 - Bruges
Aug 25/26/27 - Paris
Aug 28/29 - London
Aug 30/31/Sep 1 - "Free days" to be added anywhere in the trip I feel like
Sep 2 - Flight from London to Chicago

[wilson49332]

OK wow. IMO- heres the first thing. PLEASE read my sticky on the eurail/ transportation stuff.

But your itinerary looks busy but dooable. I will say that Italy is a little too cramped. I would take a day away from prague and add it to Pompeii as there was a lot to do there. Rome is good- 3 days. Florence/ Pisa are also a day EACH (NOT Both!)- I would skip one or the other. Venice is also going to be real rushed unless all you want to do is say you went on a gondola ride- then your fine. London is also 3 days as well if you want to do it right. (DO NOT skimp on London- its loaded with stuff to do- trust me I did it in a day- but it wasnt worth all the money I spend to do it that quickly and I was dead tired- all I remember is how bad my feet hurt!). Amsterdam is another day you can cut out- you dont need 2 days there (one is fine). You are totally going RIGHT through Munich, I would take a day there- if even to try the worlds BEST beer at the Hoftbrauhaus. (Ok no beer- if not just for a great German meal- no German trip is complete without a trip to that place!)

Ok so thats that on the itinerary- its long enough to do it, but with a couple changes (and you have enough free days and a couple deleted days to add to other cities that require more time/ and ADD Munich (unless youve been there- but its a one day city too.)

As to the Eurail: YES of course GET IT!!!! This much travel will work for you to save a lot on the pass over individual tickets. In fact use the pass only 4 times and its paid for. Over four trips, you are saving money.

As to the specific pass to buy- buy the Eurail Pass Youth Second Class, 1 month for $634.00. (Again if under 26). Its purchasable here, through AAA, STA or any travel agency.

As to the cost- this is covered in other posts- please review all the stickys I and Ivy have posted on the subject. They are always on the top of the forum Europe main page underneath the exclamation points post to win 10,000 bucks. Plan on around 50 bucks a day- however some areas will be less, others more. Breakfast is usually covered free in hostels, so that leaves city transportation (bus/tubes) and lunch and/or dinner. London/ Paris/Venice will be more. Prague, Amsterdam, Spain, Germany will be a little less so it will equal out to be something like $1600 plus plane ticket which you have and train tickets (the reservation/couchette/eurostar fees are extra on top of your eurail pass), and museum fees. I would say with a reeeal estimate it will be around $3600.00 after plane ticket, eurail, museums, rail fees, food, and hostels. Dont quote that though hehe Im just throwing something out. I say 700 for the flight, 600 for eurail, 300 for eurail fees, 1600 for hostels and food, and 300 for museums and rail fees inside of the major cities (e.g. subway, bus etc....)

As to distance- take the overnight ANYTIME you can- it saves on train days on your pass: Mapquest works- just type the city and country in under directions, or the deutch bahn site also works for train times. Here they are:
[link]
and
[link]


All the same your train itinerary looks fine. None of those city combos you didnt mark as being overnight will need to be overnight and are less then 5 hour trips, and all the ones marked as night trains are run at night.

The trains are usually pretty dead, especially at night. With the pass, you should be just fine. Even if one is full, you may just need to sit for an extra hour for the next one that wont be full. (Especially in Italy and Germany and France). Spain's trains are little less frequent but still ok to wait. I would go there on the first day and reserve them all on the first day for the peace of mind if you hold to your plans (or just reserve say a week so you can change plans if you say like one city too much to leave as planned.) So reserve each week when there. DO NOT reserve here in the US we charge extra fees to do that. (ANY place does).

THE ONLY one to reserve ASAP even here is the EuroStar chunnel train one way on the way back to London from Paris. Those do fill up fast, and are cheaper in advance with your Eurail Pass (it gets you 50% off or a 50 buck fare usually.)

Note- not saying this is an excellent itinerary. It will be very tiring, its a lot but dooable. I myself would cut a couple other cities out as well (smaller ones- but thats up to you. I like the quality of quanitiy- with this you will see a lot, but wont get a feel for the "TRUE" Europe. You wont be able to go off the main streets to see what the locals do, you will be very rushed, skip many museums since they have long ticket lines, etc. I think others would agree- IVY any thoughts??????

Hope that helps, glad to help further if needed.

[wilson49332]

You know what too- the Czech Republic is NOT covered in the eurail system. You will need to pay for an individual ticket within that country (Prague itinerary). That will add more to the total price. You may also wish to consider looking into a trip to Dachau when in Munich. But I was also going to say consider going to Vienna or or seeing the Swiss Alps. (Zurich???). Thats up to you- I like both of those more then Prague and would save money. Just an idea.

[ivybell]

Here are some tips about the itinerary. Gibralter and Tangier can't be done at the same time. You could visit Tangier in a day, but it's not the best place to visit in Morroco. Also Toledo and Granada. Granada should have at least its own day, if you want to see the Alhamra, that is several hours on its own. The other places you list as being done at the same time, I would say the same thing, you're just not going to be able to see anything.

At the least, I'd get rid of Gibralter and Tangier as they are farthest away from the other places, and add your free days to the places that have multiple cities down as one day.
_________________
In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: It goes on.
Robert Frost

[wilson49332]

I agree- souther Spain is quite a different trip- too much. I hadnt really thought of that. That takes care of one more day. I will say this too- DONT try to plan everything hour by hour in Europe. Its something you can have a rough estimate of what you will do day by day, but I always say let it flow in Europe. Its more fun and less stressful. You MIGHT also wish to see if itll be better to fly to a couple cities in the MIDWEEK to save some time. Often times it is cheaper then 10 bucks one way to fly. (E.G. the Spain to Italy trip, etc.). That will clear some hours up to, and will be less tiresome as remember- those overnight trains ARE NOT for comfort- you wont get much sleep- its a toss and turn thing (even then its rough as the beds are cot sized and the matresses are waffle thin.)

I would do that rough plan, but then forget it while in Europe- try to stick with it, but dont fret if you take an extra day somewhere because its so nice. Maybe make a list of things you want to do as Priority 1 in each city, Priority 2 (as a I want to do but can skip), and Priority 3 as I know its cool to skip but would like to do if im ahead of schedule.

Also to save time in london/paris- get the London pass/Paris museums pass with transportation option included. They allow you to skip lines and walk in and out of any museum/train/bus you wish with the card. Londons must be purchased in the states I think, Paris can be purchased there.
(http://www.londonpass.com etc). Hope that helps!!

[Kandahar]

Thank you both so much for your help. I see what you mean about my itinerary being a little rushed. I changed it a little bit, and cut out a few cities/countries to focus more on Spain and Italy. Does this look better? Worse? Would it be more expensive? Cheaper? Any other suggestions?

Also, would a Eurail pass still be a good idea since most of the cities are closer together than they were on my previous itinerary? Are trains the most efficient form of travelling between cities WITHIN a country?

Jul 31 - Flight from Detroit to Madrid
Aug 1/2/3 - Madrid
Aug 4 - Granada
Aug 5/6 - Seville
Aug 7 - Tangiers
Aug 8 - Algeciras/Gibraltar
Aug 9 - Valencia
Aug 10/11/12 - Barcelona (flight or overnight train to Venice)
Aug 13/14 - Venice
Aug 15 - Florence
Aug 16 - Pisa
Aug 17/18/19/20 - Rome
Aug 21 - Pompeii/Sorrento
Aug 22 - Capri
Aug 23 - Amalfi/Ravello (flight or overnight train to Amsterdam)
Aug 24/25 - Amsterdam
Aug 26/27 - Bruges
Aug 28 - Luxembourg
Aug 29/30/31/Sep 1 - Paris
Sep 2 - Flight from Paris to Detroit


Thanks again for your help!

[ivybell]

It's looking better. As for the cheaper/more expensive aspect, it's often cheaper the fewer places you go because you aren't constantly paying for transport.

A few things though, and you quite free to tell me to *beep* off. But I think you could forget Algerciras, it's not very nice, just a port town and somewhat dodgy. The same goes for Tangiers. If you really want to see Morroco, why not skip Algeciras/Gibralter and go to Marrakech instead? It's not that far from Tangiers by bus or train. Or skip both and head to someplace like Cadiz. Another thing you could do is cut off a day from Rome and add it on to the Spain/Morroco portion.

I don't know if there is an overnight train to Amsterdam from the Almalfi area, www.trenitalia.com will tell you.

It really depends on whether you use the train or bus. I found that sometimes the train was better, and sometimes the train for Spain ( I went to almost the exact same cities you are going to). For the most part trains are really good for in-country travel, but sometimes the bus may have a better schedule. It just depends. You don't really need to worry about it much, that's something you can arrange once you're there.

I know nothing about the rail pass so I can't help there, though it'd be worthwhile to divide the cost of the pass between the number of train trips and see what the price is to determine if you'd be better off without the pass.
_________________
In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: It goes on.
Robert Frost

[wilson49332]

Ok first off- yes the rail pass is still worth it. Buy the same one I mentioned earlier. There is another option if you wish for like 380euros you can buy a 1 month eurolines buss pass and use the bus system anytime as well, thats your call. I prefer the train- its a little quicker. What you need to do to see if its worth it is a long process but worth the time. Go to [link] and type in that itinerary. Each time check I have a rail pass, write that cost down, then do the same thing without checking I have a rail pass. Compare the price adding the 630 to the rail pass box. if its more with a rail pass, do individual tickets. Also do that process on the [link] site- using a bus. Im 99% sure itll come out ahead with a pass.

As to your itinerary- 4 days in rome may be a bit much, but
I also agree with Ivy- that part of Spain is really shotty- I would avoid it. Im a guy and hated the area as I felt like strangers would beat the crap out of me or something! Its the one area in Europe I was afraid of!!!

But- there are no overnight trains to Amsterdam from Ravello. That is over 1500 miles, and hence a train ride would cost you 22 hours as well as about 10 transfers!! Thats a flight thing- there are also no low cost carriers that I see that do that route from Naples (which is the closest airport- take a train to Naples- thats not any issue there). They have them to Brussels, but not to Amsterdam unless you connect into London.
That flight costs 210USD however leaves at 12:00pm. If you take the train to Rome, Air Berlin has a flight for 130USD which connects into Berlin bookable on orbitz. That however would force you to stay in Berlin overnight, and arrive in Amsterdam at 8:00am.

As to price, it should stay about the same except that flight to Amsterdam since you cut out Germany. And really train or bus is efficient within countries- its all up to you on that. Most people in Europe get around via train- its much better then say Amtrak here.

PS- What trip to Europe doesnt have London in it unless you have been there already???? Also- where are you from? I come from Michigan/or Kentucky take your pick hehe. Id bet with that itinerary you are flying with Northwest or Air France.

Hope that helps- glad to help if needed.

[Kandahar]

Once again, thank you both for your help. I appreciate the heads-up about Algeciras being sketchy; the only real reason it was on my itinerary at all was because I'd heard that it had the shortest ferries to Tangiers. But maybe I'll just skip it and take the ferry from Gibraltar instead, since I want to see Gibraltar anyway.

As for Tangiers, I'm completely open to changing it to a different Moroccan city, but I was only planning on spending a day in Morocco. Mainly I just want to see what a city in an Arab Muslim country is like, and be able to say that I've been to Africa. Is Marrakech close enough to Spain that I would have enough time to catch a ferry from Gibraltar to Tangiers in the morning, take a bus to Marrakech, see the city, take the bus back to Tangiers, and take the ferry back to Gibraltar, all in one day?

You're right about Amsterdam being too far away to take the train; I should probably plan to take a flight from Rome or Naples.

Also, I noticed that a few posts back, you (Wilson) estimated the amount I should budget for my trans-Atlantic flight at $700. Is it really possible to find flights that cheap? All of the flights I've looked at seem to be in the $1100-1400 range.

Thanks!

[wilson49332]

My bad- yeah the price you was saying is the going rate unless you try going into London or Manchester and connecting onto a cheaper airline in Europe.

[Kandahar]

Also, does anyone know how to get to Gibraltar from Spain (or Morocco)? Is it actually an island or is it just the southern tip of Spain? It looks like the Eurail doesn't run there, nor do any of the bus websites that I've looked at.

I know that it's a sore point in Spanish-British relations, but please tell me there's a way I can get to Gibraltar without first flying to London. Thanks!

[wilson49332]

Its not real easy. There is no public transportation into the town itself (the town itself has busses and taxis, but none going into the rock- You must walk. They all mention that it is free- so a warning not to buy a ticket (lol what a way to make money!)

Check these sites:
[link]

and

[link]

and lastly:

[link]
Hope that helps!

[ivybell]

You are right about Tangier being the closest city and best way to Morroco. All that I meant was don't bother spending time there, just get a ferry and spend the extra time in Morroco. Marrakech is fairly close and a much better look at Morroco than is Tangiers.
_________________
In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: It goes on.
Robert Frost